Well AT, that could be from your POV but when I think of "tongues" in a religious sense like you stated in your article here, I think of Acts Chap2. In that chapter along with Paul's two chapters (ROM 12 & 1 COR 12) he was talking about a gift from God. Learning a language is not necessarily a gift from God. A talent is not the same thing as a "gift." One is used solely in the building up of the church while the other is just something you're particulary good at and enjoy doing but doesn't necessarily have anything to do with God or His church.

When you say "we all" are you talking Christians and non Christians alike?

I tried your link but couldn't get thru. I'm interested in what you do for missionary work in Italy.

KFC:

When you say "we all" are you talking Christians and non Christians alike?

Do you believe God would only bless "Christians" with special talents and abilities? I don't quite get why you always come off so smug and antagonistic. I'm sure you don't mean to, but you certainly come off that way.

Here's a working link to his website and a link to the Avanti Italia website.

PS - Jeremy, I'll email you soon.

KFC

Learning a language is not necessarily a gift from God.

Then who is it from?

One is used solely in the building up of the church while the other is just something you're particularly good at and enjoy doing but doesn't necessarily have anything to do with God or His church.

Again, to whom are you attributing our gifts and abilities? If they don't have any thing to do with God, where do they come from?

I believe that the gifts of God manifest themselves differently today. In the first century there was an urgent need, hence the miraculous speaking in tongues etc. Today the gift of tongues still exist, it is just not longer what many would consider "miraculous."

I still think that we most likely agree on this topic, but for some reason aren't making ourselves clear to one another.

When you say "we all" are you talking Christians and non Christians alike?

ALL humans are made in the image of God. That in and of itself is a gift, isn't it? He also sends the rain on the just and the unjust. Christians are those that have decided to follow Christ. It doesn't make God love those who have not decided to follow Christ any less.

May understanding is that every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows.

TW

PS - Jeremy, I'll email you soon.

Cool! We are heading down to Rome tomorrow morning so I will be away from the computer for a few days, take your time! Love ya.

Sorry I'm so late in responding. I was out of state and not wired up to get on JU. I hope it's not too late to respond.

Do you believe God would only bless "Christians" with special talents and abilities? I don't quite get why you always come off so smug and antagonistic. I'm sure you don't mean to, but you certainly come off that way.

No, what I'm saying is there is a difference between natural talents and spiritual gifts. One is for the natural world and one is not. Natural talents are not powered by the Holy Spirit and used for the edification of the church.

I'm not sure what you mean about smugness? Is it because I asked a question? I did so for clarification so that I wouldn't assume as I did earlier on this subject. I do tend to be blunt not with as much tact as I should have I admit. I'm not one for flowery flattering words. I don't like to be on the receiving end of it so I don't give it as well. Sorry TW if I offended you in any way. Thanks for the links.

Again, to whom are you attributing our gifts and abilities? If they don't have any thing to do with God, where do they come from?

Basically I'm saying is that spiritual gifts work in the spiritual realm and natural talents in the natural realm. Since all Christians are humans they have natural talents as well as spiritual gifts. For instance a Christian may have a natural talent for public speaking but not necessarily have the spiritual gift of teaching. But not all humans are Christians, and do not have the HS, therefore they do not possess spiritual gifts but do have natural abilities.

We were talking earlier about tongues right? Well Rosy my girlfriend like I said above has a gift for languages. Now I use that term loosly. She studied many,many many hours in the study of these languages to be proficient in them. I would say she has the tenacity and a hard work ethic that came from inside her or was developed by her environment maybe discipline learned from her parents to get where she's at now. This is different than the "gift of tongues" Paul was talking about and what we observe in scripture. These uneducated men spoke a language they never knew or studied before for the benefit of the hearers. That was supernatural; a "gift" from God. Not something of their own doing. I do find it interesting that we have no record of Paul speaking in tongues. I'm thinking maybe because he was proficient in many languages to begin with having been a student of the great Gamaliel. I was just reading that Paul was learned in at least Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic and as he said was a Pharisee of Pharisees.

ALL humans are made in the image of God. That in and of itself is a gift, isn't it? He also sends the rain on the just and the unjust.

May understanding is that every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows.

Yes, I agree with you. Everything on earth is his. He created it all. I have a quote for you; it also serves as a warning.

"The lesson is clear. Don't try to use your natural talents to accomplish the work of God, for talents cannot operate in that sphere. But use them as channels or vehicles for spiritual gifts, and you will find that they dovetail beautifully. You might expect that they would do this since they both come from the same God." Ray Stedman

Natural abilities (talents)benefit the whole creation. Spiritual gifts, however are largely limited to the church although the presence of the church in the world is generally a benefit to mankind as well.

Does this make sense?

KFC

Sorry I'm so late in responding.

No prob!

One is for the natural world and one is not.

Basically I'm saying is that spiritual gifts work in the spiritual realm and natural talents in the natural realm.

I disagree here. The Christian world is not cut and dry, day and night, natural and spiritual. The Christian world is a spiritual world. In other words, a Christian cannot live a dichotomized life. The spiritual is directly connected and united with the natural, and I think Paul would agree. He wrote the Corinthians to address this exact issue, that what goes on in the natural does indeed affect the spiritual (1 Corinthians 6). The natural and spiritual are not separate containers, but are one.

Let me give you an example. A person has a natural "talent" for public speaking, they become a Christian and that same "talent" is used for preaching. Now, since that person has become a Christian, do we now call that "talent" a "gift?" What has changed about it? Simply put nothing. A natural talent can and is used to edify the church.

I do find it interesting that we have no record of Paul speaking in tongues.

1 Corinthians 14:18 – I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you.

Natural abilities (talents)benefit the whole creation

Which would include the church.

I also have a quote for you.

"And whatever you do, whether in word or deed, do it all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him." The Apostle Paul

At this point I think we pretty much understand one another. We disagree, and that's okay. The New Testament is not the Old Law but with new commandments and I fear that too often we approach it as such. A Pharisee is not what I aspire to be. It is for freedom that Christ has set us free and I will bind no man, woman or child to what amounts to “educated speculations.” You have your idea and I have mine and I'm okay with that.

Grace to you and peace from God Father and Lord Jesus Christ.

It is for freedom that Christ has set us free and I will bind no man, woman or child to what amounts to “educated speculations.”

Insightful for that.

Now, since that person has become a Christian, do we now call that "talent" a "gift?" What has changed about it?

Well, what has changed the person? The answer is the same.

1 Corinthians 14:18 – I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you.

yes, but what I meant was we have no record of him using this gift specifically. He knew the true gift and used it properly is what I believe he's saying in that verse. But nowhere in the NT do we see him actually exercising this gift. Neither do we see in any of his writings where he mentions any specific use of it by any Christian. You

We disagree, and that's okay.

Yes!!! Good quote BTW



Blessings